S1 E13: Laying the Foundations: Core Values for New Leader Success
TIn this enlightening episode of Knowing Me, Knowing You, we delve into the critical role of core values in shaping effective leadership.
Join Emma as she engages in a candid conversation with an accomplished leadership expert Jacqui Jagger who shares powerful insights and real-life examples that highlight the importance of identifying and living by one's values as a new leader.
Together, they discuss practical strategies for clarifying your personal values, aligning them with your organisation's mission, and leveraging them to create a strong team culture.
Learn how to foster an environment of trust, respect, and shared vision by embodying your core values and empowering your team to do the same.
Don't miss this essential guide to laying the foundations for lasting success as a new leader!
Jacqui Jagger Resource Links:
Resource Links:
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SHOW NOTES:
You're listening to Knowing me, Knowing you, the podcast that explores the art and science of creating, developing and retaining brilliant teams. I'm your host, Emma Clayton. Join me weekly for practical advice, simple steps, and inspirational ideas as we discuss topics that make a difference to leaders and their teams. I'll be sharing all the tools and having conversations that help you to build and sustain by performing. Welcome to the Knowing me Knowing you podcast.
Hello, and welcome back to knowing me knowing you. I am your host, Emma Clayton. And it's so so great to have you back again. Today. I say this for every podcast episode, I know. But this is a really meaty conversation that we're about to have today is all about new leaders. And where do you start? So if you are a new leader, or you are soon to be a new leader, then this is absolutely a podcast you will not want to miss. Now I am going to be having conversations with the wonderful Jackie Jagga, who is just a ray of inspiration and knowledge and a dear friend as well. So whilst there is a little bit of nepotism me bringing in all my best mates, actually, I'm bringing you top talent to share all the conversations that I have offline and bringing them into knowing me knowing you. So Jackie, amazing to have your big warm welcome.
Jacqui Jagger 01:50
Thank you so much. It's amazing to be here. Yeah.
Emma Clayton 01:53
Why don't we start with you? Tell everybody who you are. I feel like Silla now; what's your name? Where do you come from? And why you're, for me, the best person to talk to about this subject today.
Jacqui Jagger 02:08
Thank you. So yeah, I am Jackie Jagger, a leadership and mindset coach, and my particular specialism within that is working with a new role and newly promoted leaders. So that can be people who've gone into a new organisation, or it can be people who are promoted internally. A lot of my work is with founder-led small and medium businesses. So businesses where potentially people haven't necessarily had lots of role models within the business sort of within the leadership. So there are not lots of other leaders to kind of look at and figure out who I can emulate, Who I am like, and what style will come naturally to me. And so it's very much about helping people to find ways to be authentic and lead in ways that are true to themselves, as opposed to that kind of mimicking something that they might see around them. Yeah.
Emma Clayton 03:05
This is everything I love. I mean, you know, all I talk about is authentic leadership. And that's the whole premise of this podcast, knowing me knowing you. Because when we know ourselves and we know others, that's where we really create that authentic leadership. So like somebody listening is newly promoted, about to be promoted. How are they feeling right now?
Jacqui Jagger 03:28
It's normally a real mix of a real mixed bag. So typically, there's that, yay, someone's backing me, I've got the opportunity, proud of myself for achieving this, I've maybe worked hard for this. And then there's also, Oh, slightly terrified those times. And for me, they were quite distinct phases. So I got my first senior leadership role when I was in my late 20s. And it just kind of happened, really, quite quickly. So the CEO came to me; they'd advertised the role that was the level above that was reporting directly to them with no success twice. And she came to me and said, What? Do you strike me as ambitious? Why didn't you apply? And at that point, it was kinda like, well, I didn't really see myself yet as the kind of person who applies for a job that's in the Sunday Times appointment section. This feels weird. I'm not ready. So but because she did that and because I felt that I had her backing. I almost kind of borrowed her belief in me initially. So when I went into it, it was exciting. And what was useful for me as I was newly promoted. The HR director that came in at the same time was new to the role, as she'd come in from another business. So I actually had a kind of ready Made buddy to go through that experience of a wave of transitioning into the senior leadership team. And it probably wasn't until a few months later that I had that whole, like, what is going on. And I think for me, the most memorable moment that really kind of struck me and made me feel like, oh, was actually an external event where I was there with my name badge on for the first time. And then I kind of felt out of place within the business. My confidence was okay. When representing the business, I was shoulder-to-shoulder with people from other businesses. I felt like, you know, a kid out of place, just kind of like, oh, I don't know how I'm supposed to be what I'm supposed to be doing. What conversations do people have at these events, all of that kind of stuff? So I would imagine, maybe all at once. There's that whole excitement and slightly terrified. Sometimes those things can be separate phases. But for most new leaders, there certainly will be elements of both.
Emma Clayton 06:06
Yeah, I remember being a new leader. And I wasn't as young as you. I was in my early 30s. And I just remember thinking, Oh, my God, like, suddenly, it was always like, the thing that you always aspired is, you know, I want to be the leader, I want to be the boss, I want to be the manager because I know better than everybody else. And actually, that's one mistake that I made. I made it once. And I never made it again, and it actually made me a much better leader. And we'll talk about that later. And I also remember feeling like I was a swan, who was going, I've got this, and underneath gang, I have no idea what I'm doing here. These people are different to me. I don't know what that, you know, people expect me to be; I didn't really know who I needed to emulate. And so I felt as if my emotions, on a daily basis, were a bit like an ECG machine. And so I'd be like, yay, oh, yeah. Oh. So that's why I really love this conversation because I wish this had been there for me to listen to, you know, people 20 years ahead of me. So I could, you know, get all of the great things to do and the mistakes. So based on the premise that there's a whole bag of mixed emotions. Let's start with some of the would like we just talked about mistakes there. Let's talk about some of the common mistakes that new leaders do make and how they could really avoid them. So my biggest mistake was thinking that I had to be the best in the room. And actually, when I became the person that facilitated the best people in the room, I was actually a better leader. So what mistakes do you see
Jacqui Jagger 07:51
that one, for sure, is really common. I think it's often the case that you feel like you've got to where you are by being the best. And therefore you feel that you continue to have to be the best. And actually, the further you travel up the career ladder, up the business, you know, into leadership roles, the less your success is determined by your technical knowledge and expertise. And the more it's determined by your ability to get things done with and through others in a variety of ways. So that definitely is a common mistake. I think another one for me, which is a kind of link, is that the coaching framework I use looks at three interlinking areas, so self-leadership, team leadership, and organisational leadership. So the self is all about how you manage yourself, your self-awareness and your understanding. It's all about knowing who you are, what you're about what's important to you so that you can be authentic. Your team leader is as nice; as it says on the tin is all about how you operate with those people who are in your team who are direct reports, how you build a high-performing team, how you integrate that team, how you ensure that your team can deliver results, and the organisational leadership piece is all of that stakeholder management, building supportive networks having impact and influence because at a higher level decisions get made very differently. So there are a lot of nuances to how people need to transition and operate when it's not just between you and your boss, but deciding things and where those things have interactions and interplay. And I think very often, when you're in your first leadership role, or you get promoted, there's a lot of emphasis on team leadership. And sometimes that's at the cost of or put ahead of the self-leadership piece and the organise Asian leadership piece, and often what you really need is an understanding of the context of all three. And then, to start with you. So the clues and the clues in the title knowing me knowing you start with you, then then you can think about them. So I think that one is really key. And I think probably the third; I mean, I could probably go on all day. But I think the third key one that I would pick up is a tendency to overwork. So to feel like, you've got to push yourself however many hours you did to get promoted or to get this opportunity, you've now feel like you've got to work harder. And so I think almost reach the level, what you see is people tend to work longer hours, push themselves further, do more. And actually, the concept I talk about is don't do more differently. So it's about understanding what that difference needs to be. And adopting that approach.
Emma Clayton 11:01
Yeah, that's a really good piece of advice. And actually, I see that a lot as being a second and a third leader of people leading leading leading; what I always say is what got you here will not get you to the next step. And so we need to almost now we've taken that next step in, we've got to stop and evaluate. So as somebody gets from the worker into a leader or team member into a leader, how can they almost take that step back and say, Okay, now, how do I want to be this leader? Who do I want to happen? Talk me through how they become a bit more self-aware in this different, you know, these different shoes that they're going to be filled in.
Jacqui Jagger 11:42
So I think it's important to understand the context of the role. So you've got yourself and who you are, and what you're about. And you've also got the demands of the role. So some leadership roles will be almost exclusively leadership, and some leadership roles you will have a lot of the businesses I work with when you're in a smaller business, you report to the CEO, you have the responsibility for strategic thought, you also have to get some stuff done yourself, you don't have that luxury of being fully in the leadership, the big picture thinking and all of that. So I think there's that kind of really pausing to reflect and thinking about the context. And then there's probably three tools that I would say, kind of really springs to mind. And that comes up time and again, for me. So the first of those is strengths and values work. And I know you had a great episode on strengths. So really echo all that was said in that about kind of understanding how to know what your strengths are and what to do with those. Then there's something called Positive Intelligence, which really looks at the mindset piece and that confidence and how you have to build that resilience to cope with the demands that life and work play on you. And there's a free online tool that I often get clients to do that will essentially give you so similar to the strengths-based questionnaires, there's a tool that does that. And the one we put in the show notes for listeners. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's a free online tool. And it will give you what it calls what I call your mind monkeys, and it calls your Saboteurs. And that's those voices that crop up, that might derail you, might undermine your confidence, might drive you to behaviours that are just not going to serve you in the long term. So things like perfectionism, hyper achiever, people pleasing, those kinds of tendencies. And when you have that awareness, and you read that report and go, Yeah, that does ring true those other things. And you put that together with a job context, and think about okay, so when might those what triggers might prompt these things, then you've got that awareness ahead of time. And the third, which I know you also are a massive exponent of is emotional intelligence, life would be a better place if we had more emotionally intelligent leaders. And so it's a brilliant framework. That's there's so much research and validation around the fact that if you improve your emotional intelligence, you are likely to be perceived as a better leader, at any level in any organisation it's, and what I like about it is that in contrast to personality, psychometrics, which is again, can be a great tool for self-insight and self-awareness. But emotional intelligence is all about your social and behavioural strategies, as opposed to Your personality, which does evolve over time, but is relatively fixed. So your emotional intelligence is developable. It's about the behaviours you're displaying, day in and day out. And it's about giving you the power to understand and choose the behaviours that will get you the result you want, as opposed to reacting to situations and circumstances in ways that won't necessarily get you the result that you're seeking. And that the difference
Emma Clayton 15:29
isn't there between the derailleurs and the saboteurs; I call it the dark side. And actually, when we had the strength podcast Mark called it, you know, overplaying your strengths, almost. So there is that, but then also there is that ability to move and emotionally react in a positive way when your values and strengths and you know, progress or whatever it is that you're trying to get don't match. So there is that real tension between those two, isn't there? And sometimes it understands which it is, is this, my dark side coming out to play? Or is this, I need to move away from some of the feelings I really want to have.
Jacqui Jagger 16:17
And I think there are a lot of things that are kind of internal versus external drivers as well. So the saboteurs often come internally, and they can seem real and seem true. But often, then it's actually about the emotion that you're experiencing, that makes them feel that way. Whereas with cool, clear logic, you will be kind of like, well, no, that's not true. At the moment, it feels it. And then, equally, there are the external drivers. So you know, how other people behave, you know, whether you are under consistent stress, you know, if you've had a day where you've literally ping from meeting to meeting to meeting, and somebody asked you one question at the end of the day, and you're kind of up to here, with everything that's been going on and your brain is full, you're not going to respond naturally, you know, emotional intelligence gives you some of the tools and skill sets to understand how to handle that situation. But just the natural reaction, as opposed to a chosen response, is going to be very different. At the end of the day than it might have been at the start of the day before all of that external stimulus. It's piled on.
Emma Clayton 17:28
Yeah, just taking the time to breathe. I know when my little dark side pops its little head. Okay. All right, just give it 48 hours. And that has come from knowing myself from understanding exactly what you've just been saying, you know, what are my strands? But also, what are those little mind monkeys that you're paying going? Oh, so one of the things that I've noticed, Jackie, and I'd really love you to tell us more about this if you can, is I've noticed a lot of people get promoted based on performance. And they are the top talent in the team. They're achieving, they're getting the results, you know, they are seen as the beacon for performance, and then they get promoted. But what I'm hearing is emotional intelligence is one of the critical factors that they then need to have. I would say it's the tension between performance and culture that creates the high-performing person, team or organisation. So they're coming in with a whole big load of performance, energy and results. But how can somebody then balance this and spend more time with that cultural, emotional intelligence side? Where do they start as a new leader? This is where they really need to dial into that emotional intelligence side.
Jacqui Jagger 18:44
So it often starts with slowing down. It starts with understanding that your long-term success is not going to be exactly as you phrased it, you know, What Got You Here Won't Get You There; your long-term success in a leadership role is not going to come from that kind of performance and drive energy because you've now got a team or a bigger team or multiple layers of a team, whatever that promotion has been. And therefore, that automatically changes the context. So you have to pause. You have to reflect the answer to overwhelm is not to do more. It's to stop and understand what's most important and do that. And it's exactly the same in this context. You've got to create that moment of clarity for yourself as a new leader that says, Okay, where are the priorities? Where does my development need to be in order for me to create this culture? I probably haven't had to do this before. I probably, you know, and if I have, it's been in a different situation. He is in a different context. So there's going to be differences. What do I already know? What strengths do I bring to this? What's going to come naturally to me? What are the things that are going to need to be more consciously practised? What additional skills or experience might I need? Where can I get the right level of help and support? I think asking for help is hard for new leaders because you feel like you should be able to do this. And the level of support for most new leaders is shocking. You know, I was so fortunate when I got promoted, a that I had that buddy that came into the business at the same time as me, and B that my business invested in executive coaching for me, and that's not always the case for new leaders. So I think if you aren't lucky enough to have the support or the training from somebody, you can still do a huge amount by consciously considering those questions. You know, Google is a big place; there's a lot of information out there. And it's easy to go down a rabbit hole. But, you know, listening to podcasts like this, speaking to people who are more experienced, who are maybe in different businesses, and asking them, you know, what do you wish you'd known? What were the mistakes you made? You can learn so much by just recognising you need to learn and then taking really simple small steps.
Emma Clayton 21:28
So if I'm just newly promoted, are amazing at my job, just super awesome. Got this new job? And I think, oh, I don't even know if I've got emotional intelligence, then I think I have, but I don't know. But I don't want to mess this up. Where can I go? No, this podcast is a bit of a tool that people can download or go to, like, do a bit of a sanity check on this?
Jacqui Jagger 21:52
Yeah, absolutely. So you can, I mean, there are so many kinds of blogs, resources, and what have you out there. And you can do an assessment. So, in the same way, you can do paid personality psychometrics, you can go to somebody who's accredited, who can take you through that process where you do that self-assessment, and then they will work with you on the feedback. But for free options, positive psychology.com. Their website has some amazing resources on emotional intelligence. And it's, they're well researched, they're well evidenced. So I would say as a starting point, if you know that you want that sanity check, then go look at those resources. And there'll be some brilliant stuff there without having to go down the whole rabbit warren of the whole of Google,
Emma Clayton 22:46
which is abundant with this kind of stuff and actually very conflicting, but I agree positive psychology is a really good place to start. And actually, in brilliant teams, we do assessments for this kind of thing we look at below the iceberg, if you like say behavioural as the tip of the iceberg and then going down into Darkside, emotion, intelligence motivators as well. So just going back a step. So you're a new leader in a team, that you were in yourself, that's got to be scary, that suddenly you're the boss of all your old colleagues, and possibly friends and mates. How what advice do you give to people? Again, moving into that role? And that's, that's not a nice place to be. Because you want to be friends with all your ex-colleagues, while they're still your colleagues. But you know, and then you've suddenly got to be the boss.
Jacqui Jagger 23:45
Yeah, it's, and you know, what I actually didn't, there was some challenges, but I didn't hate it. And for me, I think there are two dynamics to this. So there's the obvious thing of, like, you say, people that work colleagues, and now you're the boss. And actually, that doesn't mean that you can't maintain a friendship. It does change the dynamics of that friendship at work. But it doesn't mean that you suddenly have to be this kind of cold, removed character. What I think you do have to be aware of and understand is how did each of you feel, and that will be different per person on that team? So I had one person when I was promoted, and I had one person that reported to me, and it was she didn't apply for the job, claim. She didn't want the job. But equally, it was harder for her. And we ended up where I had a conversation, and I was like, You know what, this is probably not going to be particularly comfortable for either of us, but I feel we need to kind of air this and have a conversation. And we talked it through. And you know what that does? Didn't necessarily change everything with it wasn't a magic wand or a silver bullet. But what it did do was it grew her respect for me for the fact that I had brought that to the table with other people, for me, it was relatively straightforward. They were good with it; it was fine. What was interesting that, with my own experience was actually, there were also some changes that I hadn't really anticipated, which was my peer group in the wider team at the organisational level. And then all of a sudden, I'm now sitting on the senior leadership team, I'm party to discussions, information that they weren't aware of. And that dynamic actually had more of an impact probably for me, because there were people I was close to as peers, not directly within my team, but in the broader team, where I hadn't really realised that that would change. And all of a sudden, they were maybe a bit suspicious of what did I know; what didn't I? You know, there was that kind of slight change in the dynamic in terms of when we extra couple.
Emma Clayton 26:08
of glasses of wine? Come on, spill the beans, Jackie?
Jacqui Jagger 26:12
Exactly. So I think that's worth kind of people being aware of and reflecting on, how's that going to feel because actually, that distance can leave you feeling less supported at a time when you need all the support you can get. So it's then looking at what can I do to build a support network in the new role so that I've got that in place?
Emma Clayton 26:35
Yeah, it's like bridging the gap that suddenly is created by this new position. But I always say to people that are taking on these roles, you know, you've got the foresight that you know, these people, by now, you should really know what makes them tick, what hacks them off. Imagine being a new leader of a new team, not having a clue. And that, again, goes back to this knowing me knowing you and we know who we are, and what kind of leader we want to be. And we know the people we're leading, we know how to motivate them, inspire them, and you know, get them a lot more engaged in what we're doing. But people are people, and one of them. Of course, I would say this is complex, but just talk, have conversations, you know, or ask them, like, how do we make this work. And I think that that comes down to vulnerability. So talk to me about where vulnerability sets for a new leader; that is incredibly hard because you already feel like you've got so much to prove and to be vulnerable in a moment of, Oh, I've got to prove myself, I got to prove that I was worth taking the pun, you know, this is a difficult time. So how do you coach through these moments?
Jacqui Jagger 27:50
It is a really interesting topic. And there's also a real kind of tension, if you like, between vulnerability and authenticity. Because what, what I would say is, you know, what you do need to do is to build your credibility and build other people's belief in you. And if you're constantly telling everyone who will listen how you don't know what you're doing, and you know, you, God knows, why did they give me this job? You know, then, even if that's what's going on in your head, that's not and again, coming back to emotional intelligence, it's choosing the approach that's going to get you the result in that situation. So do you need to be able to vent some of that and say, some of that, yes, is that probably best done outside of the organisation to supportive, you know, friends, you know, previous work colleagues, people who've been through that, you know, jump in level themselves, where they can relate to it, and they can say, you know, what, either hold your hand or kind of just reassure you, you're gonna get through this, it'll be okay. But yeah, it's, it often than can push people to that, like you say, like, I don't want to show vulnerability because I want to build other people's confidence, build my own credibility. And that's so counterproductive because it can become a habit. And I speak from experience that for me, I have done that where I tried to cover my kind of fears, self-doubt, lack of self-belief. I didn't ask for help. I didn't speak up. And then, you know, I took all of that pressure on. And that was really hard. And I made it unnecessarily hard for myself with the benefit of what I know and what I've learned since I would approach that situation differently. And I think it's about recognising vulnerability and a leadership role. It is about that relatability. It's about creating opportunities for connection with the people around you, for emotional connection, for building relationships for support. And if you try to act as if you're perfect, and you've never got anything wrong, and you have all the ideas, then actually you no longer stay relatable, you know, no longer keep that connection. And you need to have trust.
Emma Clayton 30:25
in your team. Because if the leader won't share some of these, you know, what the hell are we going to do here, guys?
Jacqui Jagger 30:33
And it replicates that situation of feeling like you've got to be the most knowledgeable in the room, that's the bottom of all you then set. Whereas if you're open about, you know, okay, I don't have all the ideas here. How can we approach it, then actually, you're your shoulder to shoulder with people, you're getting their input, you're getting their ideas. And funnily enough, just literally this morning, I was having a conversation with somebody who said that that was the one big mistake that they went in, with no support, thinking being the boss had the answers. And they used to say, this is how we're going to do it. And they actually had a really experienced team. And when I'm that fair play to them because the team fair back and they listened. And what they then did was said, Right, okay. The next approach is, this is what I'm thinking, or this is what we need to get to. What's your input? How do we go about this? And, and you show that you value people you show they matter to you, and that count for so much.
Emma Clayton 31:41
It's a psychological need that everybody's got to be heard, to listen and not for the boss to have all the answers. But actually to open the floor and give everyone a voice. Yeah, I 100% agree. And actually, you see a lot of people leave in what they say people leave managers, they don't leave organisations, they leave managers because they haven't got the voice haven't got an equal seat at the table. And you know, they're not able to show their own expertise, because the boss thinks that they know all. So that's, you know, one thing for you new leaders, don't make that mistake, don't do it. You don't want a mass exodus of your team. The one thing that just popped into my head as you were talking, I think, goes back to mistakes people make. You are probably going to laugh as I say this now, but one of the things, and I actually think this is probably more true for women. But I do see it across both sexes, gender neutrals, binaries and all of the appropriate pronouns. But one thing that I do see is people become suddenly this hard-faced, you know, this role model of just being tough and direct and ballsy. And, like 1990s leadership, because that's how people think you now got to be, and you've got to wear the power suit. And you know, you've got to, like, wear the big heels if you're the woman or a man if you want to. And I mean, there was no greater depiction of this than, as I record this now, last week's apprentice when these five girls went in to see Byron s Brady, not to be called Karen, even though everyone's called her Karen, for the whole of the theories, and just the behaviour of like, this is somebody we aspire to be as women, you know, what an amazing role model she is. But actually, she really fell off the pedestal for me because that's the antithesis of what a role model of somebody as a leader should be. And that's what new leaders are looking and seeing is what, you know, they need to be. I have a very different view on this one. People will know this. But where do you sit with this? Because for me, I it just makes me feel sick when I see a new leader just down into this trap.
Jacqui Jagger 34:07
What I refer to as the dickhead trap, so this Yeah, and that, and that's it's tongue in cheek, it's part of my LinkedIn headline. And people smile because they recognise it because we've seen people get promoted. And it's like, hang on a minute, you were a decent person before. And now suddenly, you're being a dick. And I think very often, this is about that vulnerability piece. It's about feeling that you almost got to put on the cloak, and it's leaning into position power rather than personal power. So position power is that authority that comes with a title. It's the decisions you get to make, it's the consequences that you can provide if people do or don't fall in line because you're in that position, and your personal power As a leader is all about your ability to influence to connect and build relationships to grow followership in the people around you. And when people lean too heavily into their position and power and don't develop their personal power, you get this imbalance where they do just look like a dick. And it's almost that, you know, old days it would have been, you know, all the powers went to their head. It's that element. It's, it's that side of it. And I think often it's actually insecurity. Not so much necessarily, Baroness Brady; I think that it's just a ridiculous TV moment. But I think for new leaders, often it's not really that the power has gone to their head; it's that they don't know how to balance those two sides. And they haven't worked enough on how to build their personal power. So then they're leaning into this other side, that just doesn't end well.
Emma Clayton 36:02
Yeah, yeah. I'm glad that you agree with me; I am. This will make you laugh. I've been told I'm too softer the leader. In some cases, I mean, obviously, the culture was very different to the culture that I would like to be in. But I thought that was quite interesting in the 21st century, leadership models that you know, you open LinkedIn, and it's all over that you can still have people thinking that this very high EQ leadership, very culture based and not performance, necessarily heavy. Leadership has been deemed to be too soft. And I don't know if that's because I'm a woman or if it's just different, but I'm quite like being a soft leader because, I'll tell you what, it has taught me so much more fellowship. It's a
Jacqui Jagger 36:46
really interesting one, because I think, as a piece of feedback, that's terrible. What does that even mean? What does that person mean when they say, You're too soft? As a leader, there's nothing that you can do with that piece. It's not data; it's not information that you can act on. So it's not really feedback; it's
Emma Clayton 37:05
just think it's because I spent too much time with my team. And
Jacqui Jagger 37:09
so with that in mind, then to me, what that's suggesting is a mismatch of values. Because the driver, I would imagine, knowing you for spending that time with your team is that you recognise the value of that, that you're choosing to focus your time there, in order to make sure that your team feel that they matter in order to make sure they feel heard, in order to get their input. So that over time they grow, the team's performance grows, and the results are better for the organisation. And, that opinion from somebody who would choose a different way, ultimately, can only be proved one way or the other over time, by, okay, managing the same team of people with the same objectives and see, so you're never really truly going to get a comparison. But certainly, from my perspective, I'm absolutely all about that much more connected, emotionally intelligent, emotionally effective leadership. And all of my experience suggests that the more that I lean into that, the better my performance has been, and the better the performance of my team has been 2% More of my team have got promoted, the better the business results have been. And all of that. So, you know, I can't say I've totally avoided the decade track throughout my career; there have been times when I have absolutely made mistakes.
Emma Clayton 38:33
everywhere. You can't avoid them. You can't. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Jackie, I could go on talking to you for ages about this. I know that every time we get together, we talk about this. It's such an amazing subject. Just as a final question, what advice would you give to anybody that's a new leader who is really struggling to find their footing or just feeling really overwhelmed and thinking, I think I've made a mistake. How would you support them?
Jacqui Jagger 39:03
So I think the advice I would give is probably some of the advice that I read back when I was in that situation, which is don't expect your confidence to be constant. So it's totally okay to doubt yourself, it's totally okay. You know, you're facing something new for the first time you haven't done this before. Be compassionate to yourself as you would to someone else; you know if you step outside of yourself and your situation and imagine what a friend would say. And I remember having this realisation about my coaching business rather than when I was in a leadership role, where I was like, hang on a minute, if I was the client, rather than the business owner, like I would 100% believe that this person has everything they need to do achieve and succeed. And very often, for new leaders, the people around them absolutely believe in them. You know, people that know them well, that recognise their strengths, that see what the trajectory they've been on, what where how quickly they've developed, totally understand that you can continue to develop, you can continue to build your skill set, you will find your footing with things. It just doesn't happen overnight. And I think if you can kind of externalise that perspective, and think about the qualities that you have, and that you bring, rather than how easy things feel, then that can get you through some of those confidence steps.
Emma Clayton 40:42
Yeah, that's really great advice. That is really great advice. Jackie, thank you. In the spirit of knowing me knowing you, Jackie, I am asking all of my guests the same question, which is, if you could choose anybody to get to know better? Who would it be? And what would you ask them? And why?
Jacqui Jagger 41:01
Or that is a great question. So the person that springs to mind, which I'm kind of slightly weird as to why this person springs to mind, but we'll roll with it, is actually foxy from shs Who Dares Wins?
Emma Clayton 41:16
Wow,
Jacqui Jagger 41:18
that's a good one. So I really like reality shows where there's that element around mental resilience, mental toughness, all of that stuff. And obviously, he's had a military career, and he's then gone into that as a TV show. And I just feel like there's a lot of hidden depths with him around his experiences, his understanding of leadership, his understanding of mental resilience. So I feel like that could be brilliant.
Emma Clayton 41:49
What would you ask him?
Jacqui Jagger 41:51
I would ask him about his experiences with the TV show; I think how true to life they feel that the mental resilience element can be and how they care for the people that come onto the show. Because I love that it's, they make a point that it's not just the physical, it's very much the mental resilience. But equally, I would be really interested as to how do they push that to the right point and make sure that they look after people at the same time?
Emma Clayton 42:31
That is such a great question. And such a good person. Well, let's maybe tag them on social media and listen and see if they can answer your question. Jackie, I've loved talking to you. Thank you so much for your time today. Where can people find you?
Jacqui Jagger 42:44
So mostly on LinkedIn, so you can find me and connect with me? I'm probably the only person on LinkedIn that mentions the dickhead drop in the headline. So I'm fairly easy to find. And yeah, I would love to connect if any of what we've talked about today. It connects with you.
Emma Clayton 43:01
Amazing. Jackie, thanks so much for your time. We'll see you again soon. And for everybody listening today, I hope that was really helpful. As Jackie said, if there are any questions you have or any support that you need, then get in touch with Jackie or me. But until the next episode, Stay Brilliant. You have been listening to knowing me knowing you. If you would like to take your personality or team assessment, go to brilliant teams.org forward slash store, and let's get you knowing you knowing them. Tell your friends about us and share the podcast with colleagues. But most importantly, come and listen to us again next week. See you soon.
Emma Clayton 00:47
You have been listening to knowing me knowing you. If you would like to take your personality or team assessment, go to www.brilliantteams.org/store., and let's get you knowing you knowing them. Tell your friends about us and share the podcast with colleagues. But most importantly, come and listen to us again next week. See you soon.
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